tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post8776120026986021324..comments2024-01-02T16:09:57.364-07:00Comments on Intrepid Lutherans: Real? Relational?? Relevant??? O THE HORROR OF IT ALL!!!Intrepid Lutheranshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05867580862562801804noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-5538330647140905482013-03-03T18:02:30.069-07:002013-03-03T18:02:30.069-07:00Despite the “arguments of men,” only God opens eye...Despite the “arguments of men,” only God opens eyes and hearts to believe His Word. Immersing ourselves in His teachings and truths is all that will keep us in the true faith. God has graciously invited us to pray for each other, our pastors, and worship leaders. “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” James 5:16 <br /><br />Jami ThomasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-77922462648015174002013-03-02T12:08:12.568-07:002013-03-02T12:08:12.568-07:00Tim,
If it is as you say (and yes, I too have not...Tim,<br /><br />If it is as you say (and yes, I too have noticed that we have weighed in on the same side of issues in recent months) than I hope our unity is based on a oneness of the teachings of Scripture. Only then is there true unity, as if one person. <br /><br />Pastor Lillo, I hope you continue to post on these websites. I've learned much from the ensuing discussion as a result of your first post. And being informed is always better than being uninformed. And no, one need not trust the words of any single person. Check the information. Then weigh what you learn against the teachings of Scripture. Only then can one make sound decisions, rather than blindly following what we are told by a few individuals.<br /><br />A few years ago, a WELS friend told me the WELS was heading down the path of ordaining women. And my response to him was similar to yours, "not even remotely" "anywhere". But I started paying attention. And I started to notice WELS church websites with female staff members with titles of "Minister". Yes, all kinds of excuses can be made, but what is the message being made to the world with a WELS church website with a female staff member with the title "Minister"? <br /><br />And I noticed ecumenical conferences where WELS pastors were standing up along side female ECLCA pastors. And when I spoke to WELS pastors and synod leaders and even WELS participants in these conferences, I was told all kinds of things; "As long as we don't pray together, it's OK", or "You mustn't judge these men because you don't know what is in their hearts". And yet, I thought to myself, what is the message to the world when WELS pastors stand up along side female pastors of the ELCA? <br /><br />And now I see an advocacy of a gender neutral Bible in the WELS, something I wouldn't have dreamed would have been even remotely considered in the WELS only two decades ago. Look at how the 2011 NIV has changed the verses relating to the roles of men and women. It is only common sense that a gender neutral Bible would have a significant effect on Scriptural teachings such as these. And again, I think to myself, what is the message to the world, as the WELS publicly promotes the 2011 NIV? In this case, I have a partial answer. Liberal church bodies are thrilled that the WELS has taken the public position they have on the 2011 NIV. But don't trust me. Google it and see for yourself. <br /><br />Keep challenging, Pastor Lillo. But watch and see if the practices in many places in synod don't change your mind, just as they did mine. History in general and the Bible in particular, show us that sometimes the strongest advocate of a position previously held a position completely the opposite. Which position is right? Go to the Bible to find out. But hopefully, it is a translation that is faithful to the original texts! <br /><br />VernonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-37116299645555604032013-03-02T11:59:04.707-07:002013-03-02T11:59:04.707-07:00Christian, the numbers are currently about 60/40 W...Christian, the numbers are currently about 60/40 WELS to new Christians. As with everything those numbers are changing. We we started out it was maybe 35/65. There is a unique membership covenant that is gone through with each new prospective transfer or BIC confirmand that specifically lays out how the church is about reaching the lost in the community and submitting to the mission of the church over one's personal view of the church. Essentially it is meant to weed out WELS members so they don't think that this is a church for them. Yet the WELS members are coming. Granted a chunk seem to be non-churchgoing WELS who now see a church that is interesting to them.<br /><br />The point remains is the noticeable increase in focus on programs, "getting people connected", volunteerism, small groups, etc. The slide is occurring slowly. More sermon series with an increasing sanctified message. A nice set of sanctified songs to go with it. The focus on vision such as "500 in 5 years" What will the church grow into. Will it build? Will it go multi-campus? (interesting timing that this vision corresponds to the renewed vigor in creating programs to keep and get new members)<br /><br />I watched this church go from a small group of people who brought people to church and Bible study and actually reached out through personal evangelism in vocation to slowly getting sucked into the direction of CG and now needing to meet the numbers through methods. They did pick up one seminary professor and two former WELS pastors though. Not a lot of 200 member congregations have 4 pastors around. So we know CG attracts pastors at least.<br /><br />I guess for me it doesn't matter anymore. I've moved on and returned to a confessional and traditional congregation. On top of it, the independent nature of this congregation allows me to just focus on the local congregational issues like "Who is playing organ this week?" etc..<br /><br />Tim<br /><br />Tim Niedfeldthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12979010561771683678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-73019508576283924982013-03-02T10:58:22.722-07:002013-03-02T10:58:22.722-07:00Christian,
This is my question with the Core in A...Christian,<br /><br />This is my question with the Core in Appleton. In a city with so many Christian churches, who are these lost souls that the Core is trying to save? There are a handful of huge, enthusiast mega-churches already in Appleton. As we've seen here on IL, there is a very large WELS congregation and school just blocks from the Core's new bar-church and more within just a couple of miles (Riverview, St. Matthew, Mt. Olive). I know for a fact that St. Matthew has lost a number of members (and a few very long-time members) to the Core, and that congregation can ill afford to lose anyone right now. I think, given that the synod (i.e. we WELS members) has helped to fund the Core, we need to demand to know the results. These Church Growth types are obsessed with numbers anyway, so there should be no problem here, right? So, how many non-Christians has the Core baptized or confirmed? How many transfers have they received from other WELS congregations? How many non-Lutheran Christians have come in from other area churches? If the Church Growth proponents really believe in numbers-based results, then they need to make their results public. If not, members of WELS need to demand accountability. Make them play by the rules of their own game.<br /><br />Dr. Aaron PalmerAPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148045256929799898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-75168335353957270952013-03-02T10:01:12.650-07:002013-03-02T10:01:12.650-07:00Tim,
I wonder how many of those 200 came off the ...Tim,<br /><br />I wonder how many of those 200 came off the street as opposed to coming from other WELS churches. Studies have shown that CG type churches only really sheep steal, if you will, rather than actually reaching the lost.Christian Schulzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148768974732438954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-53334519149249729112013-03-02T07:33:11.323-07:002013-03-02T07:33:11.323-07:00We are not just talking about adopting some of the...We are not just talking about adopting some of the practices and formats from emergent churches. As I pointed out earlier, some have adopted the words of Craig Groeschel as their stated philosophy and model for preaching. If you watch Groeschel and watch what happens at the core, the similarity is striking. Can anyone seriously argue that adopting that line of thinking will have no impact on doctrine? If so, I would say such a person is completely delusional and might want to consider this old saying:<br /><br />Watch your thoughts, for they become words;<br />Watch your words; for they become actions;<br />Watch your actions, for they become habits;<br />Watch your habits, for they become your character;<br />And watch your character; for it becomes your destiny.<br /><br />Dr. Aaron PalmerAPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148045256929799898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-67997252765660818512013-03-01T20:10:55.397-07:002013-03-01T20:10:55.397-07:00Having come full circle in the realm of worship I ...Having come full circle in the realm of worship I too will attest that every WELS church who thinks they can make contemporary worship work and not succumb to the dangers of CG are totally naive at best and just plain stupid at worst. <br /><br />I was one of the founding group of 12 people that started Victory of the Lamb as linked above by Pr. Schultz as one of the Big 5 of WELs contemporary only mission starts. As we began there was lots of looking to St. Marcus and Crosswalk and St. Paul's Muskego for help and ideas in innovation. <br /><br />I myself was all over the blogs spewing the most foolish of statements that I now see other people spew. I maintained at the time that CG was not inherent in contemporary worship unless a church was inclined to error in the first place. I believed that a WELS church could resist the beginnings, monitor themselves, employ self-discipline. Alas I think it is impossible. Doug L.was so right in so many ways. Everyone here should give him the credit he deserves for being the scholar that we could only wish the WELS was full of.<br /><br />What's worse is how the initial success of these churches is then passed around as the new thing to grow the church. No matter the fact that although Victory has grown from 12 to 200 in 6 years..that it already has decent backdoor losses. <br /><br />Add on that the Worship director at Christ the Rock started at Victory and then got a call to CTR. (his bilge of music was even too much for Victory.) Here is a nice Christmas tune for you. At least the WELS doesn't have any rediculous CG stuff. http://vimeo.com/55169896<br /><br />It doesn't work folks. It's a road to the shallow end of the theological pool. I wouldn't be one like the fellow above that said "The synods need to require all churches to follow the liturgy and lectionary only, on pain of disfellowship." however I know I can say that those in the WELS who want to follow the CG path are plain fools.<br /><br />Tim Niedfeldt<br /><br />PS: Vernon...I must say that in most cases I swear we are the same person when you comment. Thanks. It saves me a lot of typingTim Niedfeldthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12979010561771683678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-61153634074869398242013-03-01T17:17:49.209-07:002013-03-01T17:17:49.209-07:00Christ The Rock IS WELS and in MY district! Yes, I...Christ The Rock IS WELS and in MY district! Yes, I have conversed with Brother Matt Doebler in person, yet it was a controlled environment. Brother Matt was copying sermons....Joe krohn went public with that info. Pastor Doebler continued, but instead of copying "per say" he sort of reworked the sermon series which WERE not what one would call Lutheran.<br /><br />In Christ,<br />RebeccaWELS church ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619436777327287395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-27188802202646777652013-03-01T16:07:15.482-07:002013-03-01T16:07:15.482-07:00Here some equally offensive examples of church-gro...Here some equally offensive examples of church-growth seeker-driven insanity from WELS churches and ministers:<br /><br />http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2013/02/does-ski-skate-friday-is-big-day-for.html<br /><br />http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-know-nothings-in-fox-valley.html<br /><br />And lets not forget about Mark Jeske's "Change or Die" Conference that was attended by gay-affirming ELCA ministers:<br /><br />http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/2011/02/dear-pastors-jeske-and-ski-you-are.html<br /><br />Nicholas Leonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-23315825261075252152013-03-01T16:00:27.866-07:002013-03-01T16:00:27.866-07:00To Lillo -
None "as" silly; "as&q...To Lillo - <br /><br />None "as" silly; "as" clueless; "as" offensive; ok, I'll agree. <br /><br />Just plain silly, clueless, and offensive - <br /><br />BINGO! Chris T. Amisshttps://www.facebook.com/?sk=welcome#!/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-5999908610724260672013-03-01T15:39:34.359-07:002013-03-01T15:39:34.359-07:00I did not say that there was no contemporary worsh...I did not say that there was no contemporary worship in the WELS. What I said was that there was nothing in the WELS that was as silly, clueless and offensive as the examples of ridiculous contemporary worship given above. I stand by my statement.<br /><br />--Joel LilloJoel Lillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13932613418526752293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-26187287449878018472013-03-01T10:04:30.850-07:002013-03-01T10:04:30.850-07:00I hate to pile on Pastor Lillo, but I must tell a ...I hate to pile on Pastor Lillo, but I must tell a story that illustrates what so many others have been saying.<br /><br />Just two weeks ago I had a conversation with a WELS acquaintance from the Fond du lac area. His life story is an interesting one. Born and raised WELS, he left the Lutheran church after high school. Eventually he reemerged in a small group Bible study led by an Evangelical college group. He described how he felt (operative word) that for the first time he really did have faith.<br /><br />Eventually he attended a Bible College and became a pastor in the Evangelical church. After nearly twenty years in the Evangelical ministry, though, he began to realize how shallow his faith was. The most important part of preparing for worship was how he might use music and his message to move the listeners emotionally.<br /><br />It was at that point that he began to reinvestigate his childhood faith. He started to read from the Lutheran Confessions and Luther's Catechisms. Eventually he made his way back to the Lutheran Church and the WELS.<br /><br />So, I asked him point blank, "Is there Church Growth methods used in the WELS?" With a grin on his face, he said, "I hate to admit it, but yes, I'm amazed at how much Church Growth is used and encouraged." He even pointed to a story from his last year in the Evangelical ministry at a church in what is our Northern Wisconsin District. He had a conversation with a WELS pastor who was one of the earliest to espouse church growth methods. In that conversation he told the WELS pastor, "Well, it looks like I'm crossing paths with you just as you're headed one way and I'm headed the other."<br /><br />Now this very faithful layperson assists his pastor in discouraging fellow members when they say things such as "we need to have a contemporary service like so and so." He says to them, "No we don't. I've been down that road before, and I don't plan on heading down it again."<br /><br />Yes, Pastor Lillo, Church Growth is alive and well in the WELS. If only you would allow yourself to see it. <br /><br /><br />Pastor Paul Lidtke Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-24976193674812059182013-03-01T09:11:30.679-07:002013-03-01T09:11:30.679-07:00Christ the Rock is still a tender spot for me, lik...Christ the Rock is still a tender spot for me, like a bruise. It was an epiphany to me and our family as well as the rest of the band that CTR was not a faithful church; that this emergent church stuff was evil. We all ended up leaving. It later came out that Pr. Doebler was trying to break up the band and impose what he thought would promote the ministry. I was told on more than one occasion that we weren't connecting with the congregation during the weekly 'gathering' with the music. And when we were losing our last guitar player, Doebler emphatically told me he needed guitar players in order to make the ministry work. Never mind about the Holy Spirit. What was so disheartening, was when we ended up at Holy Word; after going to the circuit pastor and 1st VP, nothing was ever done. Well, now that VP is DP and CTR is allowed to continue. This is no surprise now as Holy Word has dropped "Lutheran" from their school name. Seems it was perceived that the name was a hindrance. So when pastors come along like Pr. Lillo and say nothing of the sort is going on, I have to say please get informed before make such a claim.Joe Krohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08675123326627773329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-35683314999858106752013-02-28T19:42:04.999-07:002013-02-28T19:42:04.999-07:00Funny though when you look up Christ the Rock usin...Funny though when you look up Christ the Rock using the Locate a Congregation function on the WELS website, there it shows up as Christ the Rock Lutheran Church. Must have the message finely tuned for the audience you wish to reach.<br /><br />St Marks on your list is in Green Bay? I looked at their website recently. It was interesting though not necessarily in a good way. <br /><br />Lee LiermannAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-17908710601675376652013-02-28T18:52:47.956-07:002013-02-28T18:52:47.956-07:00Lee, yes, Christ the Rock is WELS.
....and this i...Lee, yes, Christ the Rock is WELS.<br /><br />....and this is WELS:<br /><br />http://www.crosswalkphoenix.com/worship.aspx<br /><br />...and this is WELS:<br /><br />http://stmarkpartners.nextmeta.com/new<br /><br />...and this is WELS:<br /><br />http://www.victoryofthelamb.com/WorshipMinistry.ashx<br /><br />...and this is WELS:<br /><br />http://www.hopeinjesus.org/about-hope<br /><br />...and...and...and....<br /><br />+ Pr. Jim SchulzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-65202055710315955282013-02-28T17:39:27.941-07:002013-02-28T17:39:27.941-07:00Anonymous said...
"even remotely?" &quo...Anonymous said... <br />"even remotely?" "ANYWHERE?"<br /><br />Christ the Rock, WELS, Round Rock, TX. "Worship Gatherings":<br /><br />http://www.ctrtx.net/ministries/worship-gatherings/<br /><br />Example, Easter 2011:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjjq8h8ttBw&feature=youtube_gdata_player<br /><br />+ Pr. Jim Schulz <br /><br />Are you sure their WELS or even Lutheran?<br /><br />I didn't spend all day looking but nothing jumped out at me to suggest either one of those connections.<br /><br />Lee LiermannAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-39828242621933535982013-02-28T17:12:08.143-07:002013-02-28T17:12:08.143-07:00Things like the above will start happening in LCMS...Things like the above will start happening in LCMS and WELS if the synods don't start excommunicating the church-growthers and seeker-drivenists. The synods need to require all churches to follow the liturgy and lectionary only, on pain of disfellowship.Nicholas Leonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-3707190865307525382013-02-28T16:56:25.085-07:002013-02-28T16:56:25.085-07:00The problem with the churches chronicled at Bad Ve...The problem with the churches chronicled at Bad Vestments is that they are liberal mainliners, and they are trying to be "contemporary" and "relevant." The liturgical dance video above is from Bad Vestments. Liberals have no respect for the liturgy.Nicholas Leonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-58053851948138801712013-02-28T14:24:30.681-07:002013-02-28T14:24:30.681-07:00Pastor Lillo,
After viewing the link you provide...Pastor Lillo, <br /><br />After viewing the link you provided, I would respectfully suggest that you provided more evidence in support of Mr. Lindee's post than against it. <br /><br />And no, I don't think most of us are searching for ridiculous and embarassing examples of what is going on in contemporary services in the WELS or anywhere else. I think those examples are being deposited at the front door steps and even in the sanctuaries of our churches, uninvited. And sadly, they are being put there as examples we should embrace rather than shun.<br /><br />Consider this. When a pastor is asked why he doesn't wear a gown during the worship service, his response is one that brags about the fact that he doesn't own a gown and never will. Whose will is being honored in such a statement, his or God's? What consideration is being given to the practice of wearing a gown that has been carried out by many faithful pastors in reverance and respect to God? When I see and hear a pastor boast about his innovations in the worship service, I see man's arrogance rather than humble service to God. <br /><br />VernonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-77944622669045581872013-02-28T11:27:13.806-07:002013-02-28T11:27:13.806-07:00Pastor Lillo,
Does not the Core in Appleton base ...Pastor Lillo,<br /><br />Does not the Core in Appleton base its philosophy on the statement "to reach people no one else is reaching, we have to do things no one else is doing." If memory serves, some version of this quote could be seen in the lobby of the old theater, though I don't think it was attributed.<br /><br />Well, if "nothing even remotely" like these things are happening in the WELS, how do you explain the fact that the Core has borrowed this phrase, philosophy, and approach from the ministry of enthusiast Craig Groeschel:<br /><br />http://churchm.ag/craig-groeschel-to-reach-people-that-no-one-is-reaching-you-have-to-do-things-that-no-one-is-doing/<br /><br />Enthusiasm underlies all of these Evangelical ministries and has since the first Great Awakening. This philosophy of Groeschel's is nothing more than the ends justify the means. I'm sorry, but the only means are the Means of Grace. God has given these to us. I continue to be amazed that human beings seem to think they can somehow improve upon them.<br /><br />Dr. Aaron PalmerAPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148045256929799898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-63011931733809974372013-02-28T11:10:35.443-07:002013-02-28T11:10:35.443-07:00Nope, not even remotely.Nope, not even remotely.Joel Lillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13932613418526752293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-18354117155763834162013-02-28T10:55:43.186-07:002013-02-28T10:55:43.186-07:00"even remotely?" "ANYWHERE?"
..."even remotely?" "ANYWHERE?"<br /><br />Christ the Rock, WELS, Round Rock, TX. "Worship Gatherings":<br /><br />http://www.ctrtx.net/ministries/worship-gatherings/<br /><br />Example, Easter 2011:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjjq8h8ttBw&feature=youtube_gdata_player<br /><br />+ Pr. Jim SchulzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-9183847658439638292013-02-28T10:12:26.865-07:002013-02-28T10:12:26.865-07:00...And nothing even remotely like this is being do......And nothing even remotely like this is being done ANYWHERE in the WELS, not even in the churches that sites like this lambaste all the time. This is an attempt at guilt by association. You are saying, "This is what contemporary worship is like; isn't it ridiculous? It's too bad that some people are practicing contemporary worship LIKE THIS in our circles."<br /><br />Yes, you can find ridiculous and embarrassing examples of contemporary worship. You could also find ridiculous and embarrassing examples of liturgical worship. Gentlemen, I give you: http://badvestments.blogspot.com/ <br /><br />--Joel LilloJoel Lillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13932613418526752293noreply@blogger.com