tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post3081963885415757196..comments2024-01-02T16:09:57.364-07:00Comments on Intrepid Lutherans: AmbivalentIntrepid Lutheranshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05867580862562801804noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-34868590999469579442012-08-10T06:15:09.789-07:002012-08-10T06:15:09.789-07:00I need to correct myself (this is what I get for s...I need to correct myself (this is what I get for shooting off the cuff)...I meant Hagedorn's 1917 "Book of Hymns" and was confusing it for the Missouri's "Evangelical Lutheran Hymn-Book" of 1912. I don't know if this is true for all, but my edition of "Book of Hymns" lacks copyright and publication dates, but does begin the Easter table with 1913.<br /><br />Daryl MeyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-4961967435097639372012-08-09T21:49:42.309-07:002012-08-09T21:49:42.309-07:00Who are "the Norwegians"? Is it some kin...Who are "the Norwegians"? Is it some kind of honorific designation, similar to the notion that people with surnames like Spencer, Lindee, and Rydecki are "Germans"? The members of the committee that prepared the <i>Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary</i> had French and German surnames. No Norwegians there.<br /><br />Do you know how many Norwegians I have in my current ELS church in Arizona? Zero. Do you know how many I had in my first ELS church in Missouri? Zero. I did, however, have three of them in my second ELS church, in Massachusetts. But I had way more Mayflower descendants than Norwegians - at least seven or eight of them.David Jay Webberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14275320725049132734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-44389953749324462742012-08-09T19:19:35.625-07:002012-08-09T19:19:35.625-07:00Just as Speratus intended...good for the Norwegian...Just as Speratus intended...good for the Norwegians! <br /><br />FWIW, the WELS' 1912 English hymnal also has ten stanzas, nine of which made it to TLH. TLH adds another. Translations are somewhat variable between the two.<br /><br />Daryl MeyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-44198721938347028622012-08-08T12:07:22.691-07:002012-08-08T12:07:22.691-07:00"Salvation Unto Us Is Come" in the Evang..."Salvation Unto Us Is Come" in the <i>Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary</i> (ELS, 1996) includes four additional verses that even TLH left out.David Jay Webberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14275320725049132734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-81354884668752524462012-08-06T14:57:26.542-07:002012-08-06T14:57:26.542-07:00The WELS' mailed fist of fellowship is legenda...The WELS' mailed fist of fellowship is legendary. In light of the synod's penchant for heavy-handedness and unilateralism, I find startling, but in no way surprising, the parallels between Mr. Techlin's experience and the Protest'ant Controversy. It's heartening to see so many standing with him. I also echo Mr. Malach's concerns about the ramifications for St. John's, Town Center; anyone remember JP Koehler?<br /><br />My wife and I had the pleasure of attending an organ/chorale concert at St. John's, 8th & Vliet, some weeks ago, which was well attended. We went back the next week for a Sunday service. Apart from Pastor Hastings, the usher, and three youths from the neighborhood, we had the church to ourselves. I'm still depressed by that. Nevertheless, what a joy it was to use The Lutheran Hymnal and the page 5 liturgy! Earlier in the morning, I had been reading a portion of the Apology in the new CPH edition. I think it was in the intro to Article XX on works that the editors specifically mentioned verse 9 of TLH 377, Salvation unto Us Has Come. Out of curiosity, I checked my copy of CW to see if this verse was included, which it is not. So, of course, which hymn should we sing in closing at St. John's? You guessed it...all ten verses! As if reading my mind, during the post service announcements, Pastor Hastings mentioned how each and every verse of this hymn is so full of sound Lutheran doctrine that it's a shame it's abridged in so many newer hymnals. How can you pick and choose which ones to leave out?<br /><br />Should IL choose to meet in the Milwaukee area, my vote for a post conference worship service would most definitely be for Bading's and Brenner's church.<br /><br />Daryl MeyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-21776381923759932402012-07-16T08:17:59.029-07:002012-07-16T08:17:59.029-07:00Pastor Lidtke,
If I may comment about this last p...Pastor Lidtke,<br /><br />If I may comment about this last paragraph...<br />"Even if "people" stop "stirring the pot" as you say, it would be better for those who refused to continue working this through with Rick would seek reconciliation so that Rick can move forward"<br /><br />You know that this situation is not unique. I can sympathize Mr Techlin's trials. <br /><br />If St. John's Lutheran Church Vliet St. means anything, one of my sibblings was a member there at the time that was transpiring and went along with St. John's Church. To certian people including my sibbling, it's still an issue that remains unresolved but has come to accept the situation for what it is in order to have some peace of mind. But I can assure you it has not pleasent to deal with over the years. <br /><br /> I am reminded of the disagreement between Paul and Barnabas (Acts 15:36-38). It would have been good to know how the two resolved their differences to the point of Paul writing Romans 12:16. I do not believe Barnabas was considered an unbeliever \ going to hell.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06312534151693835622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-46600210913810352102012-07-14T13:33:53.386-07:002012-07-14T13:33:53.386-07:00I have just been in contact with Pastor Robert Weh...I have just been in contact with Pastor Robert Wehrwein of the Reformation Lutheran Conference, and he reports that the next volume of THE WAUWATOSA THEOLOGY is at least another year away. He asked me to encourage anyone interested in the series to contact NPH to encourage continuation of the project. He also forwarded to me an email from the translator of John Schaller's PASTORALE PRAXIS, who continues on the project despite challenges in his personal life. <br /><br />By the way, does anyone know of anyone who has and might be willing to part with their copies of the WELS MINISTRY COMPENDIUM volumes from 1992? I would really like to be able to get ahold of a set for myself. Would the WLS library allow a non-student/graduate to purchase books donated to the library for WLS students?Warren Malachhttp://www.msn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-26172668773913422622012-07-13T11:53:35.875-07:002012-07-13T11:53:35.875-07:00With reference to Mr. Techlin's case, what are...With reference to Mr. Techlin's case, what are the fellowship implications for those who support Mr. Techlin? Are they "out of fellowship" with Mr. Techlin's former congregation and pastor? Are they "out of fellowship" with the district/synod which has not resolved the matter in Mr. Techlin's favor?<br />Is the case going to be brought to a district or synodical convention for resolution?Warren Malachhttp://www.msn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-64771083203715668752012-07-13T11:33:04.715-07:002012-07-13T11:33:04.715-07:00"Is "termination of fellowship" als..."Is "termination of fellowship" also used to "prune the congregational rolls" of those who have stopped coming to church, i.e., for those who have not "caused a problem" in the eyes of the congregational leadership, but with the same result of "getting rid of them"?"<br /><br />Hardly...although that should be more the rule. Inactive members are left on the rolls to keep the numbers up, because after all that is what church is all about these days: GROWTH! No one wants to appear to be shrinking, even though it is 1000 lb. gorilla in the room and the Bible speaks clearly of it in the last days. No, sadly those members who goad the leadership to be faithful to the Word are sent packing because the church is now in the business of dressing itself not for Christ, but for the world.<br /><br />JoeJoe Krohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08675123326627773329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-80103123799499242242012-07-13T10:51:31.802-07:002012-07-13T10:51:31.802-07:00Is "termination of fellowship" also used...Is "termination of fellowship" also used to "prune the congregational rolls" of those who have stopped coming to church, i.e., for those who have not "caused a problem" in the eyes of the congregational leadership, but with the same result of "getting rid of them"?Warren Malachhttp://www.msn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-53240706124893368042012-07-12T19:51:36.020-07:002012-07-12T19:51:36.020-07:00"Is it common practice in the WELS for "..."Is it common practice in the WELS for "termination of fellowship" to be used instead of church discipline leading to reconciliation or excommunication? It sounds to me like an easy way to "deal with" members who "cause problems.""<br /><br />Indeed. It is the default mechanism. Once you are deemed one of those who 'cause problems', it becomes a 'fellowship issue'. And if you refuse to meet about discussing the fellowship issue, you will be accused of refusing a doctrinal discussion...when that is what you wanted in the first place.<br /><br />Joe KrohnJoe Krohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08675123326627773329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-52688138805342279392012-07-12T18:27:49.074-07:002012-07-12T18:27:49.074-07:00First there was an error in one of my statements ....First there was an error in one of my statements .. it should have read:<br />For you to conclude this is based on information that I'm --->>> not <--- privilaged to have. (makes a difference :| <br />\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\<br />Pastor Lidtke,<br /><br />I appreciate that you took the time to explain though I do not know if I'm entitled to an explanation.<br /><br />As you know, pride has no boundries. I am guilty of that countless times and no doubt there is some in everybody, in every church.<br /><br />I know there is justification for being proud of doing what is right and good in the eyes of our Lord and I know of the guilt, shame and embarrassment that comes from pride that my sinful nature hold on to. I thank my Lord that he does not keep a record of my short comings.<br /><br />I take so much comfort from Paul when God reminds him and us that:<br /><br />Romans 5:1<br /> Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,<br /><br />Romans 12:18<br />If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.<br /><br />Romans 14:19<br />Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.<br /> <br /> If I may interject God's Word for all of us that we keep in mind:<br /><br />James 5:16 <br />Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. <br /><br />All that I can say is to pray for Mr Techlin, pray for St. Peter congregation and pray for those who feel hurt, offened and unrepentive. For if we can't do that for those who are of the family of believers... how then can we do so for the truly spiritually lost we deal with.<br /><br />Lord help us. <br /><br />Jon RehborgJonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06312534151693835622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-60431815650521495992012-07-12T15:40:55.185-07:002012-07-12T15:40:55.185-07:00Is it common practice in the WELS for "termin...Is it common practice in the WELS for "termination of fellowship" to be used instead of church discipline leading to reconciliation or excommunication? It sounds to me like an easy way to "deal with" members who "cause problems." Is the practice provided for in WELS congregational constitutions?Warren Malachhttp://www.msn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-21656826861454484632012-07-12T14:41:39.934-07:002012-07-12T14:41:39.934-07:00Mr. Techlin et al,
I apologize for causing offens...Mr. Techlin et al,<br /><br />I apologize for causing offense and instigating this argument with my use of the term "excommunicated." I did not use it as a slight against anyone, but rather in its strictest meaning, i.e., "excluded from the communion." However, after reading one of the original posts on Mr. Techlin's blog, Light from Light (cf. http://vdma.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/terminated-from-wels-fellowship/), I now realize that St. Peter's Constitution highlights a difference between the acts of "excommunication" and "termination of fellowship." I apologize for ignorantly using them in a synonymous way. <br /><br />In any event, I think it behooves us to read the well-documented articles on Mr. Techlin's site rather than belabor the point here. As I mentioned in my discussion with Pr. Lillo above, I only brought up the situation as a defense against the malicious charge that this blog has submitted no evidence pertaining to divisions among us.Daniel Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167233773588648850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-51609957835768462252012-07-12T14:35:08.733-07:002012-07-12T14:35:08.733-07:00He has stated that he is receiving spiritual care ...He has stated that he is receiving spiritual care at St. John's in the town of Center. His pastors would, then, be Jeff Suhr and Micah Martin.Joel Lillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13932613418526752293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-15535991560283291392012-07-12T14:11:30.352-07:002012-07-12T14:11:30.352-07:00Is it public knowledge where Mr Techlin is now rec...Is it public knowledge where Mr Techlin is now receiving spiritual care?Warren Malachhttp://www.msn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-57938441419822848302012-07-12T09:36:36.804-07:002012-07-12T09:36:36.804-07:00Jon,
As someone who reached out to Mr. Techlin lo...Jon,<br /><br />As someone who reached out to Mr. Techlin long before his fellowship was terminated by St. Peter congregation, I can tell you that Rick has done everything he was asked to do by the district officials. "Fitting and orderly way" definitely describes Rick's principaled discussion with his pastors, congregation, and district.<br /><br />I was present at a meeting called by the district presidium in late March of 2011. In attendance was Rick, five pastors who supported him and shared concerns, and another lay person who did the same. Also present were the pastors of St. Peter, and the circuit pastors of anyone involved (including mine).<br /><br />At the end of the meeting it was agreed that all of us present would make a concerted effort to talk to one another in an effort to bring a peaceful resolve among us. Just two weeks later Rick received the certified letter telling him that his fellowship was terminated. What has always amazed me is that his pastors and congregation did so without ever informing him that such an action was even being discussed or taking place.<br /><br />I commend you for wishing to be a peacemaker. Having stood with Rick throughout this time, I'd like to see peace reign as well. Yet, I believe it would take more honesty on the part of St. Peter--as well as a sincere apology--for peace to be realized. Rather than work toward that end, most people involved in this case decided that "time heals all wounds."<br /><br />Even if "people" stop "stirring the pot" as you say, it would be better for those who refused to continue working this through with Rick would seek reconciliation so that Rick can move forward.<br /><br />Pastor Paul LidtkeIntrepid Lutheranshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05867580862562801804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-2506601054522284472012-07-11T23:43:53.730-07:002012-07-11T23:43:53.730-07:00Rev Rydecki,
It was to this situation that I was d...Rev Rydecki,<br />It was to this situation that I was directing the unfortunate circumstance of Mr. Techlin. <br /><br />"I am not aware of the leadership of my congregation accusing me of anything other than persistent false doctrine. It is inaccurate and damaging to my reputation to say I was excommunicated."<br /><br />Since you ask for my opinion... I would start by whatever means available, <br /><br />1) to ask for forgiveness from our Lord <br />2) to correct the inaccuracy of facts being circulated which is damaging to his (and other parties involved) reputation. If the inaccurate information has been communicated publicly, then publicly... if in personal conversation (non-web), then in person.<br /><br />The way I read his reply, Mr Techlin is himself defending St. Peter congregation and subsequent leadership in so far as refuting an accusation of an action in which was not done.<br /><br />I am not in the position to conclude whether or not every official channel of defense in the synod turned its back on him and to judge if shameful treatment he has received by the official actions of his former pastors and congregation. For you to conclude this is based on information that I'm privilaged to have (nor do I want to know) for I do not want to be party to second hand information.<br /><br />--------------------------<br />Where should he go to church, in your opinion?<br />------------------------<br />In my POV ...that's up to Mr. Techlin and his conscience and God. To recommend something is not my place, nor should it be. <br /><br />Sometimes time heals wounds, but I must admit that it will be harder for that to happen when others keep stiring the pot. I for one do not want to stir anything that doesn't produce being a peacemaker. Matthew 5:9 <br /><br />-------------------------------<br />What should he do?<br /><br />Pray. <br />Pray for peacemakers to be giving Godly advice.<br />Pray for friends for support in giving Godly advice.<br />Pray that "everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way"<br /><br />"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God."<br /><br />Show love. Love is patient, love is kind. It.. keeps no record of wrongs. <br /> <br />Jon RehborgJonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06312534151693835622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-64727600322733837462012-07-11T19:07:05.992-07:002012-07-11T19:07:05.992-07:00Jon,
Thank you for reminding us about the 8th Com...Jon,<br /><br />Thank you for reminding us about the 8th Commandment. In fact, it's that very commandment that urges us to "defend our neighbor," which includes defending him in the shameful treatment he has received by the official actions of his former pastors and congregation.<br /><br />I would urge you to keep the 8th Commandment by doing the same thing. Since you find it unfortunate that Mr. Techlin defends himself, perhaps you will take up his cause, since every official channel of defense in the synod turned its back on him.<br /><br />And perhaps you could suggest to Mr. Techlin just what course of action he should take. Where should he go to church, in your opinion? What should he do?Rev. Paul A. Rydeckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01447491206453142100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-25957336028869593082012-07-11T18:02:32.600-07:002012-07-11T18:02:32.600-07:00It is unfortunate that Mr Techlin has felt the nee...It is unfortunate that Mr Techlin has felt the need to defend himself.<br /><br />And what about the reputation <br />...of St. Peter congregation, <br />.....the accusation of "refused acquittal by the District Presdium" <br />......and the lack of spiritual discernment from other faithful Pastors in our midst<br /><br />It would not come as a surprise if one would someday learn that the "Do or Die" conference has been addressed among the princible parties involved between those who particapated and the Church leaders. No doubt things will be handled in a scriptural POV and any actions that result will come from such a spirit in private rather than on a web cam for everybody to see.<br /><br />Lest all of us forget the seriousness of the 8th commandment, Jesus says:<br /><br />Matthew 12:36<br /> But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.<br /> <br /><br />Jon RehborgJonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06312534151693835622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-69135389350828234552012-07-11T14:14:55.922-07:002012-07-11T14:14:55.922-07:00Dear Mr. Techlin: I scrolled back up this thread t...Dear Mr. Techlin: I scrolled back up this thread to see if there were previous posts about this subject, but couldn't find any. Can you point me to earlier posts about the subject you raised in your post? Thank you!Warren Malachhttp://www.msn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-21257939076639293872012-07-11T09:17:28.612-07:002012-07-11T09:17:28.612-07:00For the record, I was not excommunicated. Excommu...For the record, I was not excommunicated. Excommunication is for unrepentant sin. The leadership of my lifelong congregation terminated our fellowship because they said I was a persistent errorist, meaning that I am persistently guilty of false doctrine. A persistent errorist is someone who follows their conscience with regard to doctrine, but their doctrine is wrong.<br /><br />I am not aware of the leadership of my congregation accusing me of anything other than persistent false doctrine. It is inaccurate and damaging to my reputation to say I was excommunicated. They did not excommunicate me, and they made no accusation to me of unrepentant sin.<br /><br />Further, at no point, did my pastors or anyone on the church council communicate with me about this termination of fellowship. At no point did they say retract this, or face termination of fellowship with the WELS. The only communication they had with me was a certified letter telling me that they had terminated our fellowship, and the only reason they cited was my two letters. That is it. <br /><br />They cited my January 2011 letter (which incorporated my November 2009 letter), and stated: "Rick, by your own words you have declared that you are no longer in fellowship with St. Peter Ev. Lutheran Church and the doctrine of the WELS." They then informed me that they had already voted to terminate our fellowship, and concluded: "In carrying out this action, St. Peter is simply acknowledging what you have already declared to be true in your 'Letter to WELS 2011.'"<br /><br />That is it. I am not aware of any other accusations. There is no other "side" to this story.<br /><br />Those letters are now a matter of public record. Anyone can judge the letters for themselves, but they should not pretend there is another "side" or some secret reason out there that they should just assume exists.<br /><br />Again, I was not excommunicated, and there is no other "side." Moreover, when we terminate fellowship we must make it clear what the doctrines are over which we disagree. This is so that others may take warning, and the errorist has an opportunity to recant. My letters were clear where I stood doctrinally, and I have not recanted. The leadership of St. Peter congregation merely said about my two letters: "by your own words you have declared that you are no longer in fellowship with St. Peter Ev. Lutheran Church and the doctrine of the WELS."<br /><br />Let me reiterate: Every communication about our termination of fellowship that I received from St. Peter congregation was in letter format. Those letters were posted. No one from St. Peter congregation spoke with me about this issue.<br /><br />There is no other "side." And if this other "side" exists, the leadership of St. Peter congregation is about a-year-and-a-half past their due date for communicating it to me. If this other "side" cannot be communicated to me, then it is not worth considering or imagining that it even exists.<br /><br />Finally, "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12). That is why I strove to do everything by the book, and focus on doctrine.<br /><br />In terminating our fellowship, the leadership of St. Peter congregation commended me to my own spiritual care. However, I pray that the Lord Jesus will continue to guide, protect, and defend me. I am not ambivalent about the attacks of the devil against individual Christians and Jesus' Church.<br /><br />Kyrie eleison.<br /><br />Rick TechlinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-64551597292386739002012-07-10T12:51:07.179-07:002012-07-10T12:51:07.179-07:00I also feel rather "ambivalent" about IL...I also feel rather "ambivalent" about IL, for the reason that I believe that there is a "vagueness" and "lack of specificity" in the IL Statement of concerns that leaves one unsure just WHAT IL wants to accomplish. In that sense, I can construe being asked to agree with the Statement as being similar to being asked by a lodge to take an "oath" before the "secrets" are revealed. What of a SPECIFIC nature is going to be accomplished if no SPECIFIC problem is being publicly addressed?<br />The Statement can be understood and construed differently by anyone. All I know FOR SURE is that IL is against the NIV2011. "Fear" was mentioned as a concern in the WELS--does IL "fear" to be more specific?Warren Malachhttp://www.msn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-55262681671812573632012-07-09T14:07:13.293-07:002012-07-09T14:07:13.293-07:00Pr. Lillo,
Thank you for the response. I do not...Pr. Lillo, <br /><br />Thank you for the response. I do not expect you to comment fully on the examples I've cited; I'm hardly qualified to either. I simply would appreciate an acknowledgment on your part of their existence, and that they conflict with the contention you raised that "not one single solitary" piece of evidence has been put forth by the Editors of this blog. You may deny or question the evidence, but can you at least agree that it has been put forth? Otherwise, you seem to be painting a false picture of this organization.<br /><br />As to your other responses, I fully agree with you concerning the descriptive nature of AC XXIV. In fact, I don't think any of the Confessions are prescriptive. They are not Canon Law or the new Magisterium. They cannot prescribe what Christians everywhere MUST believe or face excommunication or eternal fire. Rather, they describe what those who subscribe to them believe and how they will live out that belief. It is an entirely voluntary exercise.<br /><br />To that end, I reject your contention that FC SD X is prescriptive. I certainly think it is accurate and a correct expression of Scripture's teaching, but it is the latter which prescribes things to me. FC SD X is a description of what I think Scripture has prescribed. AC XXIV is a description of how I will live out my faith life in lieu of Scripture's prescriptions, and as a member of a fellowship which in no way "varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers" (AC XXI:5).<br /><br />So while your contention that the Church has no "official" order of service is correct - there have always been regional manifestations of and changes to the Liturgy; just look at the differences between East and West! - to say that someone who subscribes to the Book of Concord is free to hypocritically deny one part of his confession but not another is something with which I cannot agree. Someone who claims he will do something in his confession but leads a life in complete opposition to it is a hypocrite and a liar, and Holy Writ has a very low opinion of these.<br /><br />As to your side note, I empathize with the concern over using the term "Mass" (I was only using it as a loose reference to AC/Ap XXIV). It has fallen out of use in our circles, and I much prefer other terms, such as those you cite, or "Chief Divine Service." However, the word itself is not evil, and while it may have come to be equated with such things as the "abomination of the mass," I don't feel comfortable binding consciences as to its use or disuse.<br /><br />Finally, concerning "UOJ," one does not have to say "you can get into heaven without being brought to repentance of your sins and trust in Jesus for forgiveness" for manifest heresy to be present. You will be hard-pressed to find any Christian communion which would make such a claim (aside from the liberal wings, but I find it difficult to apply the Christian moniker to those sects anyway). Even the Papists claim that grace alone is all-sufficient for salvation. The radical sects claim we are justified by faith alone. But each means different things than we mean when they make such claims. So too, those who adhere to "UOJ" may claim the importance of repentance and faith, but do they mean the same things we mean? I used to think so, but now I am not so sure.<br /><br />Thank you for the dialogue. It is much appreciated.Daniel Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167233773588648850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-82958487389413574992012-07-09T09:00:37.508-07:002012-07-09T09:00:37.508-07:00Mr. Baker,
You've raised a number of points a...Mr. Baker,<br /><br />You've raised a number of points and I won't respond to all of them. I really cannot comment on your points about the Change or Die conference or Rick Techlin's excommunication. I can't say anything about the former because I really don't know enough about it to comment. I can't say anything about the latter because I've only heard Rick's side of the story and that, frankly, is not enough for me.<br /><br />I will respond to two of your points. I know that many of your who post approvingly of IL like to quote AC XXIV as proof that Lutherans always have to worship with the full Western Rite. It doesn't say that. Remember, one of the Confessors' purposes in writing the AC was to demonstrate that they were not trying to start a new church, but reforming the existing church. They wrote a fair amount to show that they were not (if you will excuse the expression) wingnuts. They were saying, "Look, you shouldn't regard us as heretics because we are so similar to you." They were not saying that the Lutheran Church HAD to worship using all of the Western Rite perpetually into the future. It is more of a descriptive passage, rather than a prescriptive passage.<br /><br />A passage that can properly be read as prescriptive is found in the FC SD X. <br /><br />8] But as regards genuine adiaphora, or matters of indifference (as explained before), we believe, teach, and confess that such ceremonies, in and of themselves, are no worship of God, nor any part of it, but must be properly distinguished from such as are, as it is written: In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, Matt. 15:9.<br /><br />9] Therefore we believe, teach, and confess that the congregation of God of every place and every time has, according to its circumstances, the good right, power, and authority [in matters truly adiaphora] to change, to diminish, and to increase them, without thoughtlessness and offense, in an orderly and becoming way, as at any time it may be regarded most profitable, most beneficial, and best for [preserving] good order, [maintaining] Christian discipline [and for eujtaxiva worthy of the profession of the Gospel], and the edification of the Church. Moreover, how we can yield and give way with a good conscience to the weak in faith in such external adiaphora, Paul teaches Rom. 14, and proves it by his example, Acts 16:3; 21:26; 1 Cor. 9:19.<br /><br />31] Thus [According to this doctrine] the churches will not condemn one another because of dissimilarity of ceremonies when, in Christian liberty, one has less or more of them, provided they are otherwise agreed with one another in the doctrine and all its articles, also in the right use of the holy Sacraments, according to the well-known saying: Dissonantia ieiunii non dissolvit consonantiam fidei; "Disagreement in fasting does not destroy agreement in the faith."<br /><br />These passages say that the Lutheran church has no official order of service. Local congregations can choose to use or not to use different parts of the order of service as they see best.<br /><br />By the way, side note: Can we please agree not to call it "The Mass." I know, I know, Luther called it the Deutsche Messe and the Formula Missae. However, the name either (depends on who you believe) refers to the most unimportant part of the Lord's Supper (the people are sent away at the end of it) or injects false teaching into it (the body and blood of Christ are sent up in an unbloody sacrifice). Let's call it the Lord's Supper, the Sacrament of the Altar, the Lord's Table, or even the Eucharist. Let's let the Roman Catholics call it the Mass.<br /><br />As far as UOJ is concerned... You show me one person who teaches UOJ who says that a person gets into heaven without being brought to repentance of his or her sins and to trust in Jesus for forgiveness... ONE... and I will concede that this is an important issue.<br /><br />I remain unconvinced that there is a major divide in our synod.<br /><br />--Joel LilloJoel Lillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13932613418526752293noreply@blogger.com