tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post169972608079549404..comments2024-01-02T16:09:57.364-07:00Comments on Intrepid Lutherans: Imposition of AshesIntrepid Lutheranshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05867580862562801804noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-76386081515196720712012-02-21T12:37:51.828-07:002012-02-21T12:37:51.828-07:00As I said, I see both sides of this tradition of a...As I said, I see both sides of this tradition of ashes. Here is a Gottesdienst rewrite of the above sermon by Pastor Cwirla. <br /><br /><a href="http://gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com/2012/02/try-2-response-to-rev-cwirla-on-ashes.html" rel="nofollow">http://gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com/2012/02/try-2-response-to-rev-cwirla-on-ashes.html</a><br /><br />If it's possible and not seen as pathetic fence-riding, I have to say I agree with both. <br /><br />All the non-divinely-instituted ceremonies of the Church's traditional Liturgy teach something useful for the Christian life. That's one of the reasons why the Lutheran Church retains them. The non-use of these non-divinely-instituted ceremonies isn't wrong in and of itself. But it becomes a problem when the replacement ceremonies teach the faith poorly or even wrongly. Sectarian worship is a good example of this.<br /><br />To me, the arguments for and against ashes are both compelling in their own way. This is one of those cases where using a traditional ceremony of the church can teach something very good and Biblical, and not using the traditional ceremony can also teach something very good and Biblical, while not teaching anything poorly or wrongly.<br /><br />So I rejoice that ashes will be used by some tomorrow for the benefit of the sinner and for the glory of God. And I rejoice that ashes will not be used by others for the benefit of the sinner and for the glory of God. And I rejoice that the use or non-use of ashes, so far in Lutheranism (or at least at the moment), seems not to be a divisive issue.Rev. Paul A. Rydeckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01447491206453142100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-13484763137788409192012-02-21T09:42:18.987-07:002012-02-21T09:42:18.987-07:00Vernon said, is it clear to our membership that th...Vernon said, <i>is it clear to our membership that the "imposition of ashes", a symbolic act, is indeed very different than the Sacraments that were instituted by Christ?,</i><br /><br />Someone offered that as an objection to doing the rite at the church I serve. However, in talking it through most people understood that receiving ashes on the forehead was not the same as receiving the body and blood of Christ in the Sacrament. Honestly, how would people get confused by receiving ashes on their forehead with receiving Holy Communion? Just because they walk forward to the altar like they do for Communion? Perhaps people need to be properly taught what Holy Communion is and does.<br /><br />- Rev. James SchulzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-51795372417643192882012-02-21T09:04:46.199-07:002012-02-21T09:04:46.199-07:00Thank you Pastor Rydecki for the sermon reference;...Thank you Pastor Rydecki for the sermon reference; it reflects some of my concerns about the "imposition of ashes".<br />The "imposition of ashes" is a symbolic act, to be distinguished from our Sacraments, which are much much more than a symbolic act. But even in this dialogue, there were comparisons made between what God neither forbids or commands, and the Sacraments. <br />In a synod where we are struggling to make a decision between the 1984 and 2011 NIV, a decision that seems like it should be a "no brainer", is it clear to our membership that the "imposition of ashes", a symbolic act, is indeed very different than the Sacraments that were instituted by Christ?<br /><br />VernonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-29905032341178401472012-02-20T20:01:29.395-07:002012-02-20T20:01:29.395-07:00Yes! Rev. Zarling, like this:
http://www.ds-indy....Yes! Rev. Zarling, like this:<br /><br />http://www.ds-indy.com/site/galdisplay.asp?sec_id=140000317&gallery_id=140000372&caption=&galname=Ash%20Wednesday%202006&galpath=/home/140000317/140000317/images/<br /><br />- Rev. James SchulzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-44793143764842174252012-02-20T19:42:05.042-07:002012-02-20T19:42:05.042-07:00For the past several years we have used an idea ga...For the past several years we have used an idea garnered from the Worship the Lord newsletter. Every year, one of our members makes a banner out of burlap. Then we have a procession of two lines come to the front of the church to place the sign of the cross in ashes upon the banner. <br /><br />The first year we did it, people were pretty hesitant and not everyone participated. But now, the whole congregation comes forward to make the sign of the cross symbolizing their repentance and Christ's forgivenss in that little ashen cross. <br /><br />The imposition of ashes takes about 15 minutes for everyone to go through. The choir is singing the Penitential or Hallel Psalms during the imposition. Then the banner is hung on the wall for the rest of Lent as we see 160 crosses from 4 year-olds to 94 year-olds. <br /><br />Instead of having an "ash-less Wednesday," like I had when growing up, our people have come to really appreciate the solemn repentance and sorrow over sin expressed by ashes and sackcloth.<br /><br />Rev Michael ZarlingPastor Michael Zarlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15169758137455384356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-73214218570415612472012-02-20T16:30:28.626-07:002012-02-20T16:30:28.626-07:00I can see both sides as well Pr. Rydecki.
My pref...I can see both sides as well Pr. Rydecki.<br /><br />My preference would to be in continuance of the Imposition of Ashes. I feel that in modern society we get this "universalism" feel. There is NO DOUBT that the gospel is beautiful. At the same time it shouldn't degrade our need for a faith driven repentance. I love Lent because of the repentance it drives. Of course the gospel should always predominate, but at the same time we shouldn't neglect what drives us to the gospel, namely, repentance. I think the following rendition of Psalm 51 (by Allegri) is beautiful in reverence toward our God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcWo1hKHu40). I believe we should always be in a state of reverent FEAR of our Lord who unfairly pronounces us righteous through Baptism, the preached Word, and the Sacrament. Therefore I believe the imposition of ashes is a great way to convey that we are at the same time a saint and a SINNER. Having my pastor rub that dirt (from which I came) on my forehead is one of the best ways to convey that. At the same time, as Pr. Schulz said, it is in the sign of the cross. We are God's children through Christ's cross, by faith. At the same time we shouldn't forget that our lives are formed by daily repentance (rubbing of ashes on our face) and faith (which receives Christ's Absolution through the called pastor).<br /><br />Mitch ForteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-22188344682669953782012-02-20T14:10:26.187-07:002012-02-20T14:10:26.187-07:00One important detail of the rite that Rev. Cwirla ...One important detail of the rite that Rev. Cwirla left out: The ashes are made in the <i><b>sign of the cross</b></i> signifying not only "dust to dust" but that "I have been crucified with Christ" (Galatians 2:20).<br /><br />No one is bragging or working their way into heaven. It's clear that the gospel predominates in the Lutheran practice and setting. It's a simple gesture to teach a profound mystery.<br /><br />- Rev. James SchulzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-58555557833429742272012-02-20T13:17:53.935-07:002012-02-20T13:17:53.935-07:00I can see both sides of the issue here. There is ...I can see both sides of the issue here. There is good symbolism in the imposition of ashes, and I don't think the ties to Roman Catholicism are convincing enough reasons against it.<br /><br />But there are other reasons that I do think are convincing. Here's an excellent sermon describing the intentional non-use of ashes on Ash Wednesday. I think he makes some very convincing arguments.<br /><br /><a href="http://thefirstpremise.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/why-we-dont-do-ashes-on-ash-wednesday-by-rev-william-cwirla/" rel="nofollow">http://thefirstpremise.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/why-we-dont-do-ashes-on-ash-wednesday-by-rev-william-cwirla/</a>Rev. Paul A. Rydeckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01447491206453142100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-6455963553542965232012-02-20T09:02:46.980-07:002012-02-20T09:02:46.980-07:00Daniel Baker said...
But did we abandon the Bles...Daniel Baker said... <br /><br />But did we abandon the Blessed Sacrament because some misguided individuals in the dominion of Antichrist abuse it? <br /><br />I want to be clear that I was talking about a ritual or practice, not a Sacrament. A Sacrament is something that is commanded and instituted by Christ. I've heard it said in some WELS circles, for example, that we should do things the way the Baptists do, particularly in regard outreach. I think many of us have cause for concern with such statements. I think it becomes difficult sometimes to separate the theology from the practice. <br /><br />I appreciate your responses to my concerns.<br /><br />VernonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-867443157105066922012-02-19T17:22:38.191-07:002012-02-19T17:22:38.191-07:00Re "Catholic" worship practices.
Becaus...Re "Catholic" worship practices.<br /><br />Because the Confessions say: “in doctrine <b>and ceremonies</b> nothing has been received on our part against Scripture <b>or the Church Catholic</b>” (<i>Augsburg Confession</i>, Conclusion) we have to come to grips with the fact that the Lutheran Church will look and feel more “Catholic” than it will “Protestant.” Over 100 years ago C.F.W. Walther offers this defense of Confessional Lutheran worship forms:<br /><br /><i>We refuse to be guided by those who are offended by our church customs. We adhere to them all the more firmly when someone wants to cause us to have a guilty conscience on account of them.... It is truly distressing that many of our fellow Christians find the difference between Lutheranism and Papism in outward things. It is a pity and dreadful cowardice when one sacrifices the good ancient church customs to please the deluded American sects, lest they accuse us of being papistic! Indeed! Am I to be afraid of a Methodist, who perverts the saving word, or be ashamed in the matter of my good cause, and not rather rejoice that the sects can tell by our ceremonies that I do not belong to them? ...We are not insisting that there be uniformity of perception or feelings or of taste among all believing Christians neither dare anyone demand that all be minded as he. Nevertheless it remains true that the Lutheran liturgy distinguishes Lutheran worship from the worship of other churches to such an extent that the latter look like lecture halls in which the hearers are merely addressed or instructed, while our churches are in truth houses of prayer in which the Christians serve the great God publicly before the world.</i> (<i>Essays for the Church</i>, Volume 1:194)<br /><br />- Rev. James SchulzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-66220314301356723122012-02-19T12:59:47.509-07:002012-02-19T12:59:47.509-07:00Vernon said,
Does the possible benefit of a ritua...Vernon said,<br /><br /><i>Does the possible benefit of a ritual such as this outweigh the baggage that comes with a practice that is one of the hallmarks of a "work righteousness" theology?</i><br /><br />You might have had a point at one time in the distant past, but I hope in Lutheranism today there aren't many expressing such a caution. I was happy to see the editors of the <i>Forward in Christ</i> magazine feature a positive story in the February 2012 issue about the imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday complete with front cover photo of the rite.<br /><br />The bigger problem is that there are some in Lutheranism today who have <b>no problem</b> with serving soda and popcorn before a divine service held in a movie theater. Such practices reveal a modern American theology that defines faith as a choice/work of man. There is no mistaking the message is sin and grace when someone in a robe rubs a smudge of ashes in the sign of the cross on your forehead in a church. Not so sure you're getting the right message when a gown-less, bar stool sitting "preacher" shares advice from the Bible with you.<br /><br />- Rev. James SchulzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-85859006471751136902012-02-19T11:14:14.558-07:002012-02-19T11:14:14.558-07:00I do not doubt that there are members of the Roman...I do not doubt that there are members of the Roman Church who, in some twisted way, believe that they are meriting salvation through this and various other rituals. To that end, the very "Sacrifice of the Mass" is laden with this false theology. But did we abandon the Blessed Sacrament because some misguided individuals in the dominion of Antichrist abuse it? Heaven forbid! To the contrary, we rigorously uphold and defend the frequent use of the Sacrament by properly instructing troubled consciences of its benefits.<br /><br />So too we do not abolish the liturgy, Lectionary, vestments, and a plethora of other things. This is because we recognize that our Churches, in which the Gospel is wholly proclaimed and the Sacraments rightly administered, *ARE* the Catholic Church. <br /><br />So, I think we can unequivocally and without shame claim this ancient, catholic practice as our own. Because it is our own. In any event, it seems odd to be to retain the name "Ash Wednesday" without any connection to the ceremony from which the day draws its name.Daniel Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167233773588648850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-16460690312902803262012-02-19T07:33:57.014-07:002012-02-19T07:33:57.014-07:00I struggle with such a practice. It is neither co...I struggle with such a practice. It is neither commanded or forbidden by God. I can understand that. But I grew up a WELS Lutheran in the midwest, surrounded by Catholics and their practices. Many of them were good friends of mine, and some of them were my "best friends". But what I saw in their theology was "work righteousness", and I saw that "work righteousness" in their practice of what you call the "imposition of ashes". Does the possible benefit of a ritual such as this outweigh the baggage that comes with a practice that is one of the hallmarks of a "work righteousness" theology?<br /><br />VernonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6881617320676906596.post-19830030347247770952012-02-18T16:13:14.848-07:002012-02-18T16:13:14.848-07:00You said 6am on Ash Wednesday. Are you sure that&#...You said 6am on Ash Wednesday. Are you sure that's right? Isn't that a bit early in the morning?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com